Ask Shawna: Horse with Major Mounting Fears

Here is a question sent in by Peggy, but I have heard from a couple other people with very similar issues so I thought it was a good time to address this potentially dangerous issue.

QUESTION: I have a spanish (?) mustang mare who is 7 years old who I rescued from the slaughter house last year. She definitely has had some past traumas. She has come so far in terms of trust and settling since I’ve had her but the one thing I really want to “fix” is her tendency to bolt or buck when mounting….she is quiet and relaxed up to that point when you swing your leg over (the point of no return!) I have worked extensively with her on the ground, desentisizing her even to a dummy that I throw over her back (stuffed jeans with boots attached). I have begun the target training with her and she is VERY food motivated so I’m hoping I can somehow use this to solve this problem. The question I have though is How? Thanks so much! you have already been a great help.

This is was an update as Peggy got a start on things: At this point I can stand in the stirrup with her for quite a while without any worries from her. I praise her and rub her all over and then when I get down I give her small little bits of carrot. This is how she learned to pick her feet up for trimming and now she is a pro at it…with just little bits of carrot!

ANSWER: First of all I want to say kudos to you for rescuing this mare and for taking the time to discover the horse that is under all of the trauma. I have found, over and over, that the horses who have been abused or have suffered under harsh training, respond VERY well to positive reinforcement. They usually end up being the most loyal and committed horses. They have found a safe harbor and they never want to let it go. The rehabilitated horse can be a real diamond in the rough.

Your mare seems to have a trauma of some sort related to the rider getting on her back. It is important to first rule out any physical cause. Be certain that there is not an injury or soreness in her back, that the saddle isn’t causing her any pain. These things can certainly cause pain and a drastic reaction. Often times the rider getting in the saddle can exaserbate the pain. The association is made with the mounting process. Even when the problem has been resolved the horse is now anticipating the pain. Horses make these associations all the time. This is part of the learning process.

In your horse’s case there is certainly some unpleasant association with mounting. Whether the origin is physical pain or emotional trauma does not really matter as we will address it the same way. We will rebuild a new, better association with the mounting process. You are on the right track with the dummy. I love that you put boots on it!! You are also on the right track with introducing the carrots. We are just going to tweek this a little bit. The best thing to do is to break it down to little steps and to create the mounting as closely as possible. It helps that you have recognized a specific action that seems to set her off. It makes it easier to pinpoint this particular issue. Sometimes it isn’t so clear and you need to break down all the little steps along the way. We want to establish a good reinforcement history with not only the leg swinging over but the actions that happen before and after as well. We don’t want her to just stand there and tolerate the mounting, although for a little bit she will be in this phase, we want her to look forward to mounting. By using the positive reinforcement, we have a great motivator to re-balance the scales and her association.

So here is what I recommend:

Start doing her target work at the mounting block. This gets her attention out of defensive mode and onto something that she has had success with and enjoys doing. This means she has a good association with target training. This will start to change her view of the mounting block. She may not be showing anxiety with being at the mounting block but that doesn’t matter. The stronger we get the association with the whole process the better. Next, do the dummy thing again, this time with positive reinforcement being a part of the equation. So click and reinforce each time the dummy swings that leg over. Here is a crucial factor. Renforce while the dummy is still on her not when it has been removed. You want the association when the pressure or weight is on her. If you reinforce when it is removed she may make the association that as soon as the weight is off it will get reinforced.

At ths point I would recommend, if possible get someone else to help you for 2 or 3 sessions. You choose who would be better mounting and who would be better on the ground. It is easy to direct from above if you feel you are the better choice for mounting. I would have the person on the ground asking her to target. Clicking and feeding correct responses. You want to see her attention on the target and not paying attention to the rider. The rider’s actions seemed to have caused her bucking and bolting in the first place so we want to help her focus on something besides the rider. Start with the weight in the stirrup. If she is quiet and solid bounce around a bit shifting weight without swinging a leg over. If she is good for this I would suggest feeding her well and leaving it here for the day. You have given her food reinforcement but also quit trying to mount which will be reinforcing to her as well.

Next day you might try leaning your body accross the saddle. It is more weight but isn’t the leg yet and it isn’t such a vulnerable position. Always keep safety in mind as you progress. Keep her focusing on target training. Feeding her well for her good choices. Never move to the next step until she is solid with the previous step. I think at this point she will be focused on the trainer with the target.

As you progress, look for her to be relaxed always reinforcing her for soft eyes, soft lips, low head carriage. Try to reinforce as ears and eyes are on the ground trainer vs. the rider. Since the issue stems from the riders’s activity we want the focus off of the rider at this point. Progress slowly. It is always better to go to slow then too fast.

This next part has to be your call as it is a feeling as opposed to something I can lay out in steps. When you feel she is ready to try the leg over, do it slow and low while the ground person is asking her to target. This is a behvioral tool with a long technical name but in a nutshell you are giving something to do that has a strong reinforcement history. She has a decision to make, touch the target or go off bucking. She can’t do both. At this point in time she is loving the target and will most likely stay completely focused on the target. When she lets you in the saddle have the ground person reinforce her a LOT. You want to build a strong association,i.e. “Rider in the saddle is GOOD!!” The first couple of times I would have the ground person reinforce. Even lead her around a bit, click and reinforce her, have her touch the target. When she has been good you will begin to shift the focus to the rider. Have her target as the rider gets on (this will help to set her up for success) and now the rider reinforces from the saddle. I ride with a waist/fanny pack and a clicker on a riding stick or in your hand. Lean forward and reinforce her. If that goes well the next time have the ground person there with the target but not asking her to target when the rider mounts. The rider will click and feed once in the saddle. Then ask her to walk off, click and reinforce her again for responding well.

Well there is a pretty detailed plan for you. Of course horse are individuals and you may choose to modify as you move along. I know you will have success. I wish I was there to see her attitude turn around, that is the best part!! It is such a great feeling. I can’t wait to hear how it all goes!

Ask Shawna: Keeping A Horse Upright While Saddling!

I will be answering Peter’s question. I will be addressing a school horse who will throw herself to the ground rather than let a specific rider put a saddle on her! Okay, this is not your usual issue.

The mare is displaying an avoidance behavior. She has learned that she can avoid something that she doesn’t like by dropping to the ground. She finds it more reinforcing to lay down rather than to stand quietly for being tacked up. Avoidance behaviors are actually quite common in horses. Think of the horse who does not let you touch his ears. He avoids the touch by lifting his head out of our reach. Or the horse who gets behind the bit to avoid contact with the rider. There are lot’s of examples. They just aren’t usually as drastic as this situation. The solution is a rather simple, straight forward approach using clicker training to rebalance the scales.

Of course, we always need to check for physical causes. Is her back sore, does the saddle fit correctly? etc. Once we rule these out we can begin to move forward. Also, it’s important to keep in mind that although we may fix a physical problem it doesn’t mean the behavioral issue will go away. Horses have good memories and will probably still associate the pain with the activity that caused it in the first place. They may still anticipate that the pain is still going to come. It all boils down to the reinforcement history. The association has been made with this behavior resulting in pain. With positive reinforcement/clicker training we can rebuild the correct reinforcement history. This will result in them finding the desired behavior (standing still) more reinforcing than the undesired behavior (laying down). If you think about it, what is in it for her to stand quietly? By adding a reward that your horse finds valuable(food) you will get your horse to want to be involved in the training process.

The key is small steps, which help to break it down and set her up for success. If you can identify at what point she falls to the ground, reinforce her just before this point, while she is still standing and still seems willing and accepting. This is the attitude you want to see more of. I can think of about a hundred little, simple exercises that will help correct this situation. I mentioned some in the video but a progress report will help me to guide you through this process and give other ideas. When I read these questions I always wish I could just be there to walk through it with you guys!! Okay Peter, please keep me updated and let me know if you have any questions.

Mounting: Look No Hands!!

There is nothing more annoying than a horse who walks off, or worse, acts up, while you are mounting. Bugs, being a bit of a fuss budget was not the worst, but he wasn’t the most accomodating horse to mount. He would turn to face me, refuse to give to the pressure of the reins and wouldn’t move up or would just be fidgety. I could always get on him but it wasn’t always pretty. Athletic? Yes. Pretty? Not so much!

Sometimes these issues need sessions devoted to improving the situation ASAP. But in his case, I simply addressed it a little bit every time I mounted. I started by clicking when he would follow me to the mounting block. I’d click once more when he would happen to be lined up nicely, and again when he would be still. I would really draw attention to reinforcing him once I was in the saddle. Pretty quickly they start to figure out that the sooner you are in the saddle the quicker they can get reinforced. I would proportionately feed more once I was in the saddle. Horses figure out pretty quickly how to accommodate and expedite the process. Next thing you know, they are bounding right up to the mounting block with hopes of you getting on!

Exclusive Training Videos – Mounting

Here’s the introduction to my new video on Mounting – using positive reinforcement to help with horses that are young and new to mounting, or horses that have issues with mounting.

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Question about treats, mounting and progress with a worried horse

This question was sent to me in FaceBook and I thought I would post it here for others who may have similar situations. I am glad to have a place to share. I removed her name just in case she wanted anonymity!!

So here is the question and response:

Hi,

I hope you don’t mind such a silly question in your inbox, but I was just wondering what size treats you use and if it matters as long as the horse can smell/taste it and take it from the hand without problem. Also, how can you tell if the horse is being motivated?

I cut my carrot treats pretty small for one horse…My clicker practice horse, a horse that is extremely sound and quite loving/affectionate. I wanted to gain some experience with her first since she is an easy horse to deal with. It was obvious that she thought this new game was just too cool and she was clearly motivated. We got down target training easily along with some basic ground manners, ground tying, backing up without contact, and better leading She does not belong to me, but my neighbors kindly let me borrow her for this experiment.

I recently started working on my own horse, who has many problems, is overall high strung, and is extremely nervous in general from past abuse from a previous owner. She’s a much different horse temperament wise than the one I started out with. I really can’t tell if she is motivated. I did make progress the first day unless it was a fluke. She won’t stand still for mounting and I have neither a mounting block nor a saddle. She just dances around nervously and then takes off as soon as I get on. I tried to target train her first so I could clearly tell that she was understanding, but she didn’t seem interested at all.

I decided to try again with mounting and told her to stand, then rewarded her after just a couple seconds. I gradually increased the time and started touching her, then moving towards her side, putting a hand on her back, arm over her back, and I finally got to being able to stand on one foot and have my other leg completely over her. This was all in a matter of 10 minutes. I’m not sure if she was more motivated by the treat (small carrot pieces) or by the fact that she is desperate for two way communication after being abused and misunderstood. I just can’t tell with her, she’s always so nervous and stand off-ish. She wasn’t reaching back for the treats or turning her head much either, I was just basically putting them in her mouth. It doesn’t sound like she’s really that motivated, yet, she stood there completely still and about as relaxed as I’ve ever seen her in the round pen.

Am I doing this right so far or do I need to find a treat that she is more enthused about? It would be nice if she could act like a normal horse for once in her life lol.

Shawna Corrin Karrasch July 31 at 7:29am:

Hi,
I am glad that your horse is with you. I would suggest that you try other treats and see if you can find something that she seems to respond to with more enthusiasm. Size and flavor can make a difference for some horses. Sometimes just peaking their interest at first and then they become more interested in the training process and you can then vary treats or just use some of their grain. When I am working with a bit in their mouth I recommend using something that will dissolve, like pelleted grain or sugar. Carrots will stay in chunks and they may not be able to chew thoroughly before I ask them to work.

However, I think the real issue is her sounds more like internal worry than the actual treat. You are making good strides with her relaxation but her apprehension may run deep. I recommend making the sessions be shorter and easier. Move a little slower and expect a little less with more reinforcement. Your on the right track but I suspect that she still feels a good deal of suspicion. Be patient and only move forward when you feel more boldness on her part. Often times horses won’t embrace eating treats when they feel some anxiety. The choice to take any treat shows some relaxation but that she doesn’t just get right to enjoying them could be a sign of some conflict in her psychological state. Maybe it is as simple as a better treat but I suspect not. I have also seen a number of horses be great on the ground but when the rider gets on they can shut down a bit. Take itty bitty baby steps (called successive approximations) Also it may help if you have someone get on with you on the ground doing target work. Essentially you are saying don’t worry about the rider just focus on me and the target and ignore the rider. This can help to change her association and to rebalance an established history and to re-establish a new, more positive reinforcement history. I suggest you move forward only when you have a enthusiastic attitude during the target sessions.

Shorter and more reinforcement per attempt will help. Also doing sessions before meals (or even using part of her rationed food) may help her food motivation. Eventually you will be able to do the sessions anytime or place but at first this may help you to set her up for success.

I also think that, if possible, using some kind of mounting block, step ladder, fence, something safe for her, will take a lot of the physical challenge out of the mounting process and can allow you to gently place your weight on her back. It can be very taxing on our horses. Also be sure there is not some sort of injury or pain adding to her discomfort. Check with your vet to rule out physical causes. Even though she may get a clean bill of health it doesn’t rule out the possibility of some past association with pain making her worry every time someone gets on her back. Fearful that the pain will return.. Whether it is physical or psychological, you can rebalance the scales for her and teach her to stand quietly.

You are on the right track. They are all such individuals. You will get there. If it is any consolation, my main horse Mint (he is in lots of videos from my website and in the book and DVD) was one of the worst horses I had ever worked. He would walk away from target training. He was very indifferent and a real quitter with no heart. You see quite the opposite now. Well, I hope that this helps you out and gives you some new ideas. It is hard sometimes to evaluate without physically seeing the situation. Let me know how it goes for the next step. I look forward to hearing of your progress.